ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

A forum for discussion of the many trunked radio systems in and around our listening area.
User avatar
W1KNE
Owner-Webmaster
Posts: 6576
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Southern New England
Contact:

ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

So a process has begun, with the end of life/support on Connect Plus systems, Industrial Communications and Electronics have begun transitioning over to a DMR Tier III trunked radio system.

So far between Bill, Jeff and myself, we've identified four sites that have active DMR Tier III control channels
S15 (DSD 1.2) - Marshfield - 936.6250 CC15
S02 (DSD 6.1) - Quincy - 939.1500 CC02
S07 (DSD ???) - Foxboro - 935.5875 CC0
S27 (DSD ???) - West Bridgewater - 938.7500 CC12
(Interestingly, WB also has a 938.7000 still as a CON+ Control channel.)

Other sites I have received
09 Taunton, 10 Fall River, and 28 Freetown remain CON+ only.

All updates to the system should be posted to this sticky thread.
Mike Fitzpatrick
Broadcast Engineer - RF Enthusiast - Municipal Fire Alarm Collector
Owner: Scan New England - NECRAT.US
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

A couple of questions as I try to reprogram, if that's the word, DSD+.

For Quincy I'm still getting Con+ on 935.2125, but TIII on 939.1500. At least most of the time.

Network is still 134?

Site for Quincy is 6.1?

What do the Talk Groups look like on TIII?

It looks like the best approach will be to set up two ICE 900 networks in DSDPlus and see what happens.

Thoughts?
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

Duh. I just realized that the best way to get some of this information is to just run DSD+, without the trunking switches.

Forboro show Site L1-36. It also shows NL with Sites 40, 65, and 66. DCC is still 7.

Quincy shows Site L1-40 on 939.1500. I'm not sure how to translate that to what you posted Mike.

W. Bridgewater shows Site L1-32 on 938.75000.

It's going to be like the old days when this network was first being built out.

So far frequencies and DCC seem the same.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
User avatar
W1KNE
Owner-Webmaster
Posts: 6576
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Southern New England
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

The 536 shows the network as being "Net 1", but I believe that, that refers to the "DMR Region", so "1.32" (West Bridgewater) is Region 1, Site 32.
Mike Fitzpatrick
Broadcast Engineer - RF Enthusiast - Municipal Fire Alarm Collector
Owner: Scan New England - NECRAT.US
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

I have, I think. Quincy should be 1.40 then?

I'm not close to ready to reprogramming either my 536 or SDS scanners. Never mind the 325P2

W1KNE wrote: 18 Aug 2023 15:44 The 536 shows the network as being "Net 1", but I believe that, that refers to the "DMR Region", so "1.32" (West Bridgewater) is Region 1, Site 32.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
CG
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 1515
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 15:46
Location: Granby, CT

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by CG »

The DSDPlus Sites are reported based on a (minor?) flaw in calculating in the program. If I recall, there was some questions with the reading of the standard which resulted in the DSDPlus Site numbering starting 1 digit below what is correct. This translates to DSDPlus Site 1.1 being Uniden Site 0 (which isn't used), 1.2=1, 1.3=2, etc. 2.1=8, 3.1=16, 4.1=24, 5.1=32. I find it easier to create a spreadsheet with the two side by side and then enter channel numbers and frequencies horizontally to flesh out each system.
Don't forget, DSDPlus uses LSN (Slot numbers) and Uniden uses LCN (Channel numbers). The OneVoice Tier III Site I have seen uses DSDPlus LSN 695 for the control channel which is Uniden LCN 348 which is (LSN+1)/2
User avatar
W1KNE
Owner-Webmaster
Posts: 6576
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Southern New England
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

CG wrote: 18 Aug 2023 18:03 The DSDPlus Sites are reported based on a (minor?) flaw in calculating in the program. If I recall, there was some questions with the reading of the standard which resulted in the DSDPlus Site numbering starting 1 digit below what is correct. This translates to DSDPlus Site 1.1 being Uniden Site 0 (which isn't used), 1.2=1, 1.3=2, etc. 2.1=8, 3.1=16, 4.1=24, 5.1=32. I find it easier to create a spreadsheet with the two side by side and then enter channel numbers and frequencies horizontally to flesh out each system.
Don't forget, DSDPlus uses LSN (Slot numbers) and Uniden uses LCN (Channel numbers). The OneVoice Tier III Site I have seen uses DSDPlus LSN 695 for the control channel which is Uniden LCN 348 which is (LSN+1)/2
Would it help to put a correlation table into the wiki between DSD and Uniden Site IDs.?

IIRC on the LSN, if it is an odd number, it's always the LSN+1 but if it is an even number, it's just divided by 2.
Mike Fitzpatrick
Broadcast Engineer - RF Enthusiast - Municipal Fire Alarm Collector
Owner: Scan New England - NECRAT.US
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

This is starting to come back to me a bit. The last time I did anything with a TIII system was before the pandemic. Fortunately, I set a couple up in DSD+ and kept the notes.

Quincy shows 939.1500 as Channel 665 in DSD+.

Rather type this all in, I'll take a screen shot with my camera and post it. That way hopefully we can decipher it.


CG wrote: 18 Aug 2023 18:03 The DSDPlus Sites are reported based on a (minor?) flaw in calculating in the program. If I recall, there was some questions with the reading of the standard which resulted in the DSDPlus Site numbering starting 1 digit below what is correct. This translates to DSDPlus Site 1.1 being Uniden Site 0 (which isn't used), 1.2=1, 1.3=2, etc. 2.1=8, 3.1=16, 4.1=24, 5.1=32. I find it easier to create a spreadsheet with the two side by side and then enter channel numbers and frequencies horizontally to flesh out each system.
Don't forget, DSDPlus uses LSN (Slot numbers) and Uniden uses LCN (Channel numbers). The OneVoice Tier III Site I have seen uses DSDPlus LSN 695 for the control channel which is Uniden LCN 348 which is (LSN+1)/2
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

This is from Quincy running 939.1500 as the control channel.

Image
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

It would help me!
W1KNE wrote: 18 Aug 2023 18:24 Would it help to put a correlation table into the wiki between DSD and Uniden Site IDs.?

IIRC on the LSN, if it is an odd number, it's always the LSN+1 but if it is an even number, it's just divided by 2.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
CG
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 1515
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 15:46
Location: Granby, CT

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by CG »

This is going to take some ciphering...
Those ICE Tier III Site numbers are not the same format as the new OneVoice Tier III, Eversource (CT) Tier III, or Marcus Tier III (those 3 systems use x.x format).
Perhaps it is because the ICE system does not use a bandplan but instead uses custom channel numbers.

On the 325P2, you could create a custom search for a range that covers one of the ICE control channels. Choose the Control Channel Only option. Once the search hits the active ICE CC, hit HOLD and after a couple seconds, the scanner should show NET1, Sxxx. I would wonder if the Site number that the Uniden reports is the same and the DSDPlus ones?

I am not seeing any new Tier III on 900 yet in western MA.

chris
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

I set up a custom search, but it doesn't see 939.1500. I used the entire band from 935.00 to 940.000 and it see multiple control channels for the Con+ sites, but nothing for the TIII sites. For the Con+ sites it shows Network, Site, and Color Code. It even shows TG numbers. It does nothing on 939.150.

The Con+ Control Channel for Quincy is still active. I wonder if the TIII stuff isn't fully activated yet?

Final Edit for tonight. Looking at 939.1500 on DSD+, it's doing the same thing, so it's not the 325P2 they just have turned something on off for now. Same thing on the Foxboro TIII control channel that was live earlier today.

CG wrote: 18 Aug 2023 19:11 This is going to take some ciphering...
Those ICE Tier III Site numbers are not the same format as the new OneVoice Tier III, Eversource (CT) Tier III, or Marcus Tier III (those 3 systems use x.x format).
Perhaps it is because the ICE system does not use a bandplan but instead uses custom channel numbers.

On the 325P2, you could create a custom search for a range that covers one of the ICE control channels. Choose the Control Channel Only option. Once the search hits the active ICE CC, hit HOLD and after a couple seconds, the scanner should show NET1, Sxxx. I would wonder if the Site number that the Uniden reports is the same and the DSDPlus ones?

I am not seeing any new Tier III on 900 yet in western MA.

chris
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
User avatar
Scott
Site Administrator
Posts: 8329
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by Scott »

Sites 11, 12, and 1 are still Con+

Edit: and sites 14 and 29 still Con+ also.
Scott
SNE Maintenance/Janitor/Fixer of "Things"
Scanner Master Customer Service Rep
User avatar
ecps92
Wiki Administrator
Posts: 6639
Joined: 07 Dec 2005 19:26
Location: South Shore, MA
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by ecps92 »

Seems (IMHO) they have only taken 1 Freq from those 4 sites, to just run the CC for the TIII

Based on logging Quincy, as Con+ for all the known Frequencies, minus the new TIII allocation.
Same for Marshfield
Scott wrote: 19 Aug 2023 10:33 Sites 11, 12, and 1 are still Con+

Edit: and sites 14 and 29 still Con+ also.
Bill Dunn N1KUG
Cruise Ship Frequencies
http://scanmaritime.com

"The tougher it is to find a frequency, the more it makes me want to work to find it. - I've learned to use the SEARCH Button"
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

Same for West Bridgewater and Foxboro. I think that this is just the beginning of the process. Which brings up o couple of other questions. Is this a software update only, or does the hardware need to be replaced? Same question for the bases and the mobiles. If it's software only, I'm assuming that it will all be done over the air for the mobiles and whatever portables there may be.

This morning Quincy was running TIII control data on 939.1500, but no traffic.

The 325P2 still doesn't stop on any of the TIII control channels within range (Quincy, Foxboro, W. Bridgewater) Based on what CG wrote, I think that it should be seeing that data and producing information. All of the Con+ control channels in range are spitting out information that matches the Wiki. The custom search I set up is for the freq. range of 935.000 - 940.0000 and it's seeing a lot of data.

I don't know what's going on with that.


ecps92 wrote: 19 Aug 2023 11:11 Seems (IMHO) they have only taken 1 Freq from those 4 sites, to just run the CC for the TIII

Based on logging Quincy, as Con+ for all the known Frequencies, minus the new TIII allocation.
Same for Marshfield
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
User avatar
ecps92
Wiki Administrator
Posts: 6639
Joined: 07 Dec 2005 19:26
Location: South Shore, MA
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by ecps92 »

Foxboro Site 7
Johnston Site 8
Taunton Site 9
Fall River Site 10
Falmouth Site 12
Hopkinton Site 16
Foster Site 18
Woonsocket Site 24
Freetown Site 28
Exeter Site 30
Narragansett Site 35

Are all running Con+ as of now.

Scott wrote: 19 Aug 2023 10:33 Sites 11, 12, and 1 are still Con+

Edit: and sites 14 and 29 still Con+ also.
Bill Dunn N1KUG
Cruise Ship Frequencies
http://scanmaritime.com

"The tougher it is to find a frequency, the more it makes me want to work to find it. - I've learned to use the SEARCH Button"
User avatar
ecps92
Wiki Administrator
Posts: 6639
Joined: 07 Dec 2005 19:26
Location: South Shore, MA
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by ecps92 »

Quincy (DSD+) 939.1500 is now showing as 1.41
W1KNE wrote: 18 Aug 2023 14:47 So a process has begun, with the end of life/support on Connect Plus systems, Industrial Communications and Electronics have begun transitioning over to a DMR Tier III trunked radio system.

So far between Bill, Jeff and myself, we've identified four sites that have active DMR Tier III control channels
S15 (DSD 1.2) - Marshfield - 936.6250 CC15
S02 (DSD 6.1) - Quincy - 939.1500 CC02
S07 (DSD ???) - Foxboro - 935.5875 CC0
S27 (DSD ???) - West Bridgewater - 938.7500 CC12
(Interestingly, WB also has a 938.7000 still as a CON+ Control channel.)

Other sites I have received
09 Taunton, 10 Fall River, and 28 Freetown remain CON+ only.

All updates to the system should be posted to this sticky thread.
Bill Dunn N1KUG
Cruise Ship Frequencies
http://scanmaritime.com

"The tougher it is to find a frequency, the more it makes me want to work to find it. - I've learned to use the SEARCH Button"
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

I'm still seeing it as 1.40. The Neighbor List is different and weird.
ecps92 wrote: 19 Aug 2023 17:11 Quincy (DSD+) 939.1500 is now showing as 1.41
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
User avatar
ecps92
Wiki Administrator
Posts: 6639
Joined: 07 Dec 2005 19:26
Location: South Shore, MA
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by ecps92 »

DSD+ doesn't even show a neighbor list, for the TIII :(
garys wrote: 19 Aug 2023 17:37 I'm still seeing it as 1.40. The Neighbor List is different and weird.
Bill Dunn N1KUG
Cruise Ship Frequencies
http://scanmaritime.com

"The tougher it is to find a frequency, the more it makes me want to work to find it. - I've learned to use the SEARCH Button"
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

Don't run it as a trunking control channel. Just run it as regular DSD using FMP24. For some reason DSD-CC doesn't show the data properly.

Back when we were trying to figure out the MCCA TIII Hytera system, DSD-CC worked fine, so it must be something with the Motorola implementation. It's still early in the deployment of the ICE TIII system, so it's going to be another adventure just as it was when they moved from analog to Con+.
ecps92 wrote: 19 Aug 2023 18:08 DSD+ doesn't even show a neighbor list, for the TIII :(
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
User avatar
ecps92
Wiki Administrator
Posts: 6639
Joined: 07 Dec 2005 19:26
Location: South Shore, MA
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by ecps92 »

Not running a dongle,
so DSD+ is my only option as the other modes require the dongle - feeding a tapped scanner audio
garys wrote: 19 Aug 2023 18:16 Don't run it as a trunking control channel. Just run it as regular DSD using FMP24. For some reason DSD-CC doesn't show the data properly.

Back when we were trying to figure out the MCCA TIII Hytera system, DSD-CC worked fine, so it must be something with the Motorola implementation. It's still early in the deployment of the ICE TIII system, so it's going to be another adventure just as it was when they moved from analog to Con+.
Bill Dunn N1KUG
Cruise Ship Frequencies
http://scanmaritime.com

"The tougher it is to find a frequency, the more it makes me want to work to find it. - I've learned to use the SEARCH Button"
CG
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 1515
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 15:46
Location: Granby, CT

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by CG »

It may well be a Motorola option.
You could also try SDRTrunk and see if that provides any the site info. The new OneVoice TIII site works with that program to show the info.
User avatar
ecps92
Wiki Administrator
Posts: 6639
Joined: 07 Dec 2005 19:26
Location: South Shore, MA
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by ecps92 »

Running a tapped audio, the only software I've had any functionality with is DSD+ or on my old XP machines trunker
CG wrote: 20 Aug 2023 09:39 It may well be a Motorola option.
You could also try SDRTrunk and see if that provides any the site info. The new OneVoice TIII site works with that program to show the info.
Bill Dunn N1KUG
Cruise Ship Frequencies
http://scanmaritime.com

"The tougher it is to find a frequency, the more it makes me want to work to find it. - I've learned to use the SEARCH Button"
garys
Forums and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 4859
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by garys »

Checking 939.1500 on DSD+ this morning showed this message, "Blocking Network change from 1 to 3." Still running, but no additional messages since.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.
User avatar
W1KNE
Owner-Webmaster
Posts: 6576
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Southern New England
Contact:

Re: ICE 900 trunk conversion to DMR Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

CG wrote: 18 Aug 2023 19:11 Those ICE Tier III Site numbers are not the same format as the new OneVoice Tier III, Eversource (CT) Tier III, or Marcus Tier III (those 3 systems use x.x format).
Perhaps it is because the ICE system does not use a bandplan but instead uses custom channel numbers.
It may have to do with one being DMR TIII Standard vs DMR TIII Capacity Max.

Just a wild guess.
Mike Fitzpatrick
Broadcast Engineer - RF Enthusiast - Municipal Fire Alarm Collector
Owner: Scan New England - NECRAT.US
Post Reply