Marcus Communications Tier III

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CG
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Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

I just finished the Tier III update to this system
http://www.scan-ne.net/wiki/index.php?t ... onnecticut

I am going to post some talkgroups but they will look strange. DMR Tier III has a way to number TGs and radios caller CPS-P3 Dialing Scheme. It reminds me of the AFS format in EDACS. It appears that Marcus is using it.

I found this online:
Network Prefix [3] / Fleet [2] / Unit/Group number [3]
Network Prefix range is 328-806
Fleet range is 20-89
Where FIN is 20 to 41, Unit number 200-899
Where FIN is 42 to 89, Unit number 200-549
Group number range 900-999

It ends up like:
500-21-900 (talkgroup)
500-21-210 (radio on the above TG)
All users are 500
21 is a specific company
900 is the TGID (only a couple have more than 1 TG)

chris

garys
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by garys »

Thanks for the explanation, Chris. While I won't be programming that system, I'll be using DSD+ to do further work on the Mass Convention Center Authority Hytera DMR system. It seems that a good deal of the update to DSD+ had to do with decoding Hytera DMR T III systems.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

without the use of CPS-P3 setting in DSDPlus, I was seeing talkgroups like 6684773 which made me wonder how someone could pick such a TG. The explanation I got from someone was it involved hex IDs and how the radios are addressed. Since the programmer of the system doesn't see what we look at, what doesn't seem logical to us fits perfectly when programming radios.
I believe the other Marcus Tier III system in use, STCC in Springfield, uses the same numbering scheme.

chris

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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by garys »

From what I can tell, the Mass Convention Center system is using CPS-P3. I'll edit the DSDPlus.networks file on my laptop for my next trip to listen to the system. Depending on weather, that could be tomorrow, although there doesn't seem to be any shows or conferences going on there then. The system is very quiet when there is nothing going on, as you can imagine.

Gary
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

PhillyPhoto
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Has anyone gotten this to work in a BCD325P2 or similar radio? I'm trying to get the Avon site (1.4) to work, but it just won't work. I bought the DMR upgrade, and can hear traffic when it's programmed as a conventional system and a "one-frequency" system. However, selecting "MotoTRBO" and using what should be the LCNs doesn't get anything.

I can hear the OneVoice network fine.

Here's my Radio Reference post with the details of what I've tried already, including going +/- 2 LCNs.

DSDPlus Fast Lane works perfectly.

CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

Pretty sure it is a Uniden firmware bug related to it being a Hytera system. It seems like it is pretty much a back burner issue until Paul gets back to work at Uniden.

chris

PhillyPhoto
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by PhillyPhoto »

Thanks Chris. That was more informative that talking directly to Uniden support. The guy had never even heard of DSD+, and suggested I use LCN finder on a scanner that doesn't have it.

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W1KNE
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Marcus Spectrum DMR Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

The other week, while in Springfield, I picked up the VC from the Marcus Spectrum Tier III system from Bolton, CT

In the wiki, the TGs are all listed for this system as "500-xx-xxx". However the two talkgroups I had were entirely different.

6708123 - discussions about rewards , bonus, etc.
6991273 - discussions about they were waiting on a valet.

Not sure how what I have translates into the above?
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

So how is the Uniden 6xxxxxxx TG converted to that AFS style?

It's not the same as an EDACS Decimal to AFS.
Mike Fitzpatrick
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CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

I said simply that it reminded me of the EDACS AFS, not that it was in any way related to AFS.
Uniden not handling it properly, I would say is Uniden not applying the options spelled out in the ETSI standard.

When I was able to start running DSDPlus on the Tier III system, I got this strange list of talkgroups
6684773
6684774
6684873
6685273
6685473
6686373
6686773
6686873
6687073

It made no sense to me why someone would create a system and pick those group numbers.
But
500-20-901
500-20-902
500-21-900
500-21-901
500-22-900
500-24-900
500-24-901
500-26-900
made more sense to me

And the radios on TGID 500-20-901 are
500-20-208
500-20-215
500-20-217
500-20-219
500-20-310
500-20-312
500-20-318

My understanding is that it is to make calling directly between radios easier.
For example (unrelated to Marcus). There may be thousands of radios on a system but your organization only has 30. If you need to call Fred down in the shipping department, instead of entering 16515074 into the keypad, you would only need to know to dial 201 on the keypad. RID 16515074 converts in the radio using CPS-P3 to 80020201 the Network Prefix is assumed to be 800 and the Fleet is 20 and the radio ID is 201.

chris

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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by W1KNE »

I merged the two topics together.
Mike Fitzpatrick
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Owner: Scan New England - NECRAT.US
Issues with Scan New England can be privately addressed to me.

CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

I had misunderstood Mikes question, he was looking for a way to calculate one from the other. I have no idea and have to find the standard I have saved somewhere.
Here are some of the TGIDs and their corresponding CPS3 Dialing Scheme numbers:

6684773 500-21-900
6684774 500-21-901
6685273 500-26-900
6686373 500-37-900
6686773 500-41-900
6687273 500-46-900
6687673 500-50-900

I'm confident it has to do with bits and bytes but not sure how it all runs together

chris

wb1hbu
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by wb1hbu »

Hello,

It is specified in Annex E of ETSI TS 102-361.

Group Number to Group ID (AI)
Group ID = (NP - 328) × 32768 + (FGN - 20) × 100 + (GN - 900) + 1048577

Radio ID
For dialled digits 20 to 41 - AI MS address = (NP - 328) × 32768 + (FIN - 20) × 700 + (IN - 200) + 1048577
For dialled digits 42 to 89 - AI MS address = (NP - 328) × 32768 + (FIN - 42) × 350 + (IN - 200) + 1063977

73 Eric

Ynot58
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by Ynot58 »

So are the talkgroups for marcus spectrum on radio reference and wiki wrong because my uniden radios won't program 8 digit talkgroups starting with a 5 only starting with a 1

CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

Unfortunately the Hytera Tier III issues was something that never was addressed by Uniden. The radios will not trunktrack those systems and they never got as far as the TGIDs and CPS-P3. If they ever get another engineer that will address them, it almost certainly can be done with firmware but I would not expect it to ever happen.

chris

Ynot58
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by Ynot58 »

Can I still monitor marcus communications without trunk tracking on uniden and will tgs show up as starting with 6s stated above or 500s? I do get tier 3 systems on my radio but never really noticed tgs

CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

Not sure what it show, I think the 167xxxxxx stuff, definitely not the CPS-P3 group IDs.
You can use the SDR and DSDPlus with a computer.

dopplerbob
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by dopplerbob »

My Whistler radio displays the TG's as follows. Any easy way to convert them to the 500-xx-xxx format so I could match up the talkgroup descriptions that Chris G. posted in the wiki?
6684674
6684773
6685873
6686373
6686773
6686873
6686973
6687073
6687273
6687373
6687673
6688573
6688873
6688973
6689073
6689075
6689173
6689373
6689474
6689873
6690273
6690673
6690973
6691073
6691173
6691273
6691373
9961973
9962073
9962273
9962373
9962673
9962773
9962873
9963273

Bob

CG
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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by CG »

there is no converter program that I was able to find.

The talkgroups are broken down into three parts, NP means Network Prefix; FGN is Fleet Group Number; and GN is Group Number.

Group ID = (NP - 328) × 8000h + (FGN - 20) × 100 + (GN - 900) + 100001h.
(h means Hexadecimal)

The easiest for me is to use the Programmer function on your Windows calculator. Upper left, change to Programmer.
Take one of the groups
500-20-901 (NP/FGN/GN)

500-328=172
Click on the HEX to use the hexadecimal number (AC).
AC*8000=56000h
click back on DEC (decimal) and make a note of the answer, 5636096

Next one in this example is easy
20-20=0
0*100=0
so 0 is the FGN for our example

Last, the GN
901-900=1
click the HEX, still 1
1+100001=100002h
click DEC which gives you 1048578

Add these three together and get 6684674.

So TGID 500-20-901 is the first one in your example, 6684674
It would be fairly easy to do something in Excel I would think. Going the other way would be much more difficult I think.

chris

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Re: Marcus Communications Tier III

Post by dopplerbob »

CG wrote:
10 Jun 2021 08:04
there is no converter program that I was able to find.

The talkgroups are broken down into three parts, NP means Network Prefix; FGN is Fleet Group Number; and GN is Group Number.

Group ID = (NP - 328) × 8000h + (FGN - 20) × 100 + (GN - 900) + 100001h.
(h means Hexadecimal)

The easiest for me is to use the Programmer function on your Windows calculator. Upper left, change to Programmer.
Take one of the groups
500-20-901 (NP/FGN/GN)

500-328=172
Click on the HEX to use the hexadecimal number (AC).
AC*8000=56000h
click back on DEC (decimal) and make a note of the answer, 5636096

Next one in this example is easy
20-20=0
0*100=0
so 0 is the FGN for our example

Last, the GN
901-900=1
click the HEX, still 1
1+100001=100002h
click DEC which gives you 1048578

Add these three together and get 6684674.

So TGID 500-20-901 is the first one in your example, 6684674
It would be fairly easy to do something in Excel I would think. Going the other way would be much more difficult I think.

chris
Just a super explanation. Thank You Chris for the time spent. Much appreciated. Now I have to get to work at this!

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