Dsd+ 1.80

Discussion of SDR's and their use in the Scan New England listening area.
Post Reply
garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Dsd+ 1.80

Post by garys »

I finally got it all working well. It's not tremendously complex, but it's not really simple either. It took a a fair amount of time and looking at the video below to finally get the configuration correct. The audio inputs and outputs are not as straightforward as you would think and it took some fiddling to get it all right.

I'm using Airspy for the control channel via SDR#, so that removes one step from the process in the video.

The other thing that we (as a group) should try to work on is OTA Channel numbering. MotoTrbo seems to use per site channel numbering, with two slots (channels) for each frequency. I've figured out the Freetown site, but that's simple because the three frequencies are right next to each other. If anyone has any thoughts on that, I'd like to hear them.

[video=youtube;A2tpDhnuRHY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2tpDhn ... e=youtu.be[/video]
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

User avatar
Scott
Site Administrator
Posts: 7498
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Contact:

Post by Scott »

I have not tried MotoTrbo/DMR trunking yet but it is on my agenda of things to do. The NXDN setup, which is outlined in that video, is relatively straightforward.
Scott
SNE Maintenance/Janitor/Fixer of "Things"

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

Yes it is. MotoTrbo is very much the same, only there doesn't appear to be a standard OTA Channel list as there is for UHF. One of the agencies near where my son lives went to NXDN trunking. I won't get to take my set up down there this trip, but I plan to on a future one. I'm still not sure I have the talk group lock out set up quite right, but I'm working on that.

I have the OTA Channel numbering for the ICE Freetown tower. We'll have to see about editing the Wiki to put that sort of information in as this unfolds.
Scott SNE Webmaster wrote:I have not tried MotoTrbo/DMR trunking yet but it is on my agenda of things to do. The NXDN setup, which is outlined in that video, is relatively straightforward.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

wb1hbu
Posts: 999
Joined: 08 Oct 2005 21:38
Location: Lynn, Essex Co.

Post by wb1hbu »

garys wrote:I finally got it all working well. It's not tremendously complex, but it's not really simple either. It took a a fair amount of time and looking at the video below to finally get the configuration correct. The audio inputs and outputs are not as straightforward as you would think and it took some fiddling to get it all right.

I'm using Airspy for the control channel via SDR#, so that removes one step from the process in the video.

The other thing that we (as a group) should try to work on is OTA Channel numbering. MotoTrbo seems to use per site channel numbering, with two slots (channels) for each frequency. I've figured out the Freetown site, but that's simple because the three frequencies are right next to each other. If anyone has any thoughts on that, I'd like to hear them.

[video=youtube;A2tpDhnuRHY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2tpDhn ... e=youtu.be[/video]
DSD+ gets the channel/LCN numbering wrong for some DMR trunked systems, compared to real MotoTrbo radios and programming software. DMRDecode and the DSD versions that decode DMR information show the correct numbering.

The Channels on Capacity Plus are per slot. The first repeater are Channels 1/2, the second repeater are Channels 3/4, etc. The programming software lists the channel pairs and the frequency is entered for the pair. OTA, the channel number is used. The LCN information in the Wiki follows this convention for Capacity Plus. This is the method DSD+ uses for ALL DMR trunked systems as far as I know. I do not have access to the latest versions, so I can not comment on any changes.

The LCNs on Connect Plus are per repeater. The first repeater is Radio ID 1, the second repeater is Radio ID 2, etc..,. The slot is a separate field. The programming software lists the Radio ID (1 to 15) and the frequencies are entered for each Radio ID. OTA, the LCN is the Radio ID and there is a separate field for the slot (0 = first slot, 1 = second slot). The LCN information in the Wiki follows this convention for Connect Plus.

DMR Tier 3 trunked systems have separate LCN and slot field listed in the specification, so each repeater has two slots like Connect Plus.

73 Eric

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

Thanks Eric.

Where can I find the LCN information for Connect Plus? I don't see it in the Wiki page for ICE MotoTrbo.

wb1hbu wrote:DSD+ gets the channel/LCN numbering wrong for some DMR trunked systems, compared to real MotoTrbo radios and programming software. DMRDecode and the DSD versions that decode DMR information show the correct numbering.

The Channels on Capacity Plus are per slot. The first repeater are Channels 1/2, the second repeater are Channels 3/4, etc. The programming software lists the channel pairs and the frequency is entered for the pair. OTA, the channel number is used. The LCN information in the Wiki follows this convention for Capacity Plus. This is the method DSD+ uses for ALL DMR trunked systems as far as I know. I do not have access to the latest versions, so I can not comment on any changes.

The LCNs on Connect Plus are per repeater. The first repeater is Radio ID 1, the second repeater is Radio ID 2, etc..,. The slot is a separate field. The programming software lists the Radio ID (1 to 15) and the frequencies are entered for each Radio ID. OTA, the LCN is the Radio ID and there is a separate field for the slot (0 = first slot, 1 = second slot). The LCN information in the Wiki follows this convention for Connect Plus.

DMR Tier 3 trunked systems have separate LCN and slot field listed in the specification, so each repeater has two slots like Connect Plus.

73 Eric
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

wb1hbu
Posts: 999
Joined: 08 Oct 2005 21:38
Location: Lynn, Essex Co.

Post by wb1hbu »

Hello,

Only some of the sites have the LCNs listed.

Code: Select all

System ID: Network 134/Site 5- Andover MA

    Neighbor Sites: Georgetown, Medford and Subury

Frequency 	Usage          LCN   Confirmation
938.1375 	Voice & CC      1    2013.01.08
937.9750 	Voice & CC      2    2013.01.08
935.8000 	Voice           3    2013.01.08
936.6125 	Voice           4    2013.01.08 
I have more LCNs I should submit to the Wiki.

73 Eric

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

OK, thanks. I'll see if I can update Site 28 as I have that one figured out.

Which brings me to my next question. What is the best way to determine LCN? DMRDecode shows LCN, but not frequency, at least not that I could see. DSD+ shows frequencies, but only shows LCN if it's entered in the DSD.frequencies file. I tried that with Quincy, but it's very hit or miss. CC.bat doesn't the frequency being used by the site today even though I entered that into the file.

From the sample above, it doesn't seem that LCN goes in frequency order.
wb1hbu wrote:Hello,

Only some of the sites have the LCNs listed.

Code: Select all

System ID: Network 134/Site 5- Andover MA

    Neighbor Sites: Georgetown, Medford and Subury

Frequency     Usage          LCN   Confirmation
938.1375     Voice & CC      1    2013.01.08
937.9750     Voice & CC      2    2013.01.08
935.8000     Voice           3    2013.01.08
936.6125     Voice           4    2013.01.08 
I have more LCNs I should submit to the Wiki.

73 Eric
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

cdgordon
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 1233
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 15:46
Location: Granby, CT

Post by cdgordon »

When LCN is used, be it LTR, EDACS, or the newer digital formats, you need to figure out what frequency is used for which LCN. One way is by gathering the frequencies by license search and then matching up activity on the program with the frequencies in a second scanner.
LCN order is determined only by how the person setting the system up chose to enter the frequencies. There is no mandatory way to enter them.

chris

User avatar
N1BHH (Silent Key)
Posts: 3101
Joined: 04 Sep 2005 13:22
Location: Jackson Square, East Weymouth
Contact:

Post by N1BHH (Silent Key) »

cdgordon wrote:When LCN is used, be it LTR, EDACS, or the newer digital formats, you need to figure out what frequency is used for which LCN. One way is by gathering the frequencies by license search and then matching up activity on the program with the frequencies in a second scanner.
LCN order is determined only by how the person setting the system up chose to enter the frequencies. There is no mandatory way to enter them.

chris
To add to this, Some LTR systems use multiple licenses (different company names, too) as some of us have noticed, many of them not licensed as trunk systems but conventional repeaters. It can be a royal pain with some of those.
CLYDE - N1BHH - A KNOW-CODE AMATEUR RADIO OPERATOR / WQWJ272 - GMRS
Pro94 Pro106 Pro164 Pro197 Pro2006 Pro2015 Pro2021 Pro2055
Yaesu's FT60R, FT2900R & FT8800R, Icom IC735, Motorola MTX9250 (900 MHz.)

wb1hbu
Posts: 999
Joined: 08 Oct 2005 21:38
Location: Lynn, Essex Co.

Post by wb1hbu »

Hello,

Capacity Plus will send a burst about every two seconds on the rest channel with rest channel information. The same information is carried in both slots on the frequency. I have noticed an occasional longer burst on other channels with the same rest channel information, likely to point stray radios back to the proper rest channel. If there is only one talkgroup active, then the rest channel will move back and forth between slots on the same frequency, i.e. Channels 1 and 2, or Channels 3 and 4, etc..., There needs to be two or more talkgroups active at the same time for the rest channel to change to a new frequency on multiple repeater sites. If there is only one repeater, then the system will busy out with two active talkgroups.

The control channel on Connect Plus is always sent using the first slot of a frequency. The talkgroup assignments tend to rotate through slots and lcns, so watch the control channel to figure out what LCNs to find. The control channel LCN is easy, just wait until voice traffic appears on the other slot, and match it up with the talkgroup assignment on the control channel. A number of Connect Plus sites on the 935 MHz band are market based licenses or licenses with frequency ranges. I had to wait until the control channel had a talkgroup assignment on the LCN I am looking for, then search the band with another scanner.

Just searching and logging active DMR signals can be helpful as frequencies can be identified as Capacity Plus, or traffic channels for Connect Plus. Connect Plus traffic channels give the system id and site number, so it is easier to connect it to a site. Linked Capacity Plus have Site IDs, otherwise there is no System ID or Site ID for Capacity Plus.

73 Eric

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

Thanks, this is very helpful. The idea of watching the control channel to identify the LCN is one that I never thought of. I spent some time yesterday with SDR+ and DSD+ confirming the Quincy (Network134 Site 2) Frequencies. I took a stab at making a DSDplus.frequencies file, but it was way off. When I can get back to it, I'll spend some time following the site for enough days to try to grab the LCNs for various frequencies. I can see that this is going to be a time consuming project.

EDIT: I listened to today's control site 938.1825 and at least tentatively confirmed it as LCN 3. This is a super busy site so it takes a while to match the audio to the Ch. number. I'm still not sure if LCN or OTA Channel is the proper term.

I did run DMRDecode on the control channel yesterday but couldn't correlate the LCN information to frequencies. I couldn't read the DMRDecode info in real time and so couldn't track the actual frequencies.


wb1hbu wrote:Hello,

Capacity Plus will send a burst about every two seconds on the rest channel with rest channel information. The same information is carried in both slots on the frequency. I have noticed an occasional longer burst on other channels with the same rest channel information, likely to point stray radios back to the proper rest channel. If there is only one talkgroup active, then the rest channel will move back and forth between slots on the same frequency, i.e. Channels 1 and 2, or Channels 3 and 4, etc..., There needs to be two or more talkgroups active at the same time for the rest channel to change to a new frequency on multiple repeater sites. If there is only one repeater, then the system will busy out with two active talkgroups.

The control channel on Connect Plus is always sent using the first slot of a frequency. The talkgroup assignments tend to rotate through slots and lcns, so watch the control channel to figure out what LCNs to find. The control channel LCN is easy, just wait until voice traffic appears on the other slot, and match it up with the talkgroup assignment on the control channel. A number of Connect Plus sites on the 935 MHz band are market based licenses or licenses with frequency ranges. I had to wait until the control channel had a talkgroup assignment on the LCN I am looking for, then search the band with another scanner.

Just searching and logging active DMR signals can be helpful as frequencies can be identified as Capacity Plus, or traffic channels for Connect Plus. Connect Plus traffic channels give the system id and site number, so it is easier to connect it to a site. Linked Capacity Plus have Site IDs, otherwise there is no System ID or Site ID for Capacity Plus.

73 Eric
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

Following Eric's excellent advice I started listening to Site 2 (Qunicy) control channels. I had a bit of because today the control channel is 935.2125 and the voice channels are all near by. Using DSDPlus I was able to do some jumping back and forth and have a pretty good idea of what the OTA Channel numbering is. I confirmed that by listening to known Talk Groups when the control channel assigned them channels. I have a fairly high degree of confidence in my information.

Here is what I have so far. It's not quite ready for the Wiki yet, but should be by the end of the weekend. I'm pretty sure that 935.1625 and 935.7875 are NOT used on this site. That being said, there appears to be a dynamic component and frequencies might be able to be added or removed from a particular site.

I think that 939.6875 is Channel 1/2, but I'll probably have to wait for it to pop as the control channel before I can confirm it. It is active with voice traffic today, but I can't yet correlate it with the control channel assignments.

Quincy LCN

935.1625
935.2125 CH 5/6
935.3875 CH 11/12
935.4000 CH 13/14
935.4125 CH 15/16
935.7875 unconfirmed for this site
938.1625 CH 7/8
938.1750 CH 9/10
938.1875 CH 3/4
939.6875
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

I'm hesitant to keep updating my own posts, it makes me think I'm talking to myself.

I spent part of the day figuring out the LCN for Quincy and part figuring out the LCN for Foxboro (Site 7). I'm testing Site 7 right now with DSDPlus using SDR Sharp to feed CC.bat and FMP-VC.bat with VC.bat. I created a DSD.frequencies file which seems to be tracking correctly. I'll update the Wiki tonight with the LCN and maybe someone can confirm that I got this right.

I should have Quincy done in a day or so and will post that as soon as I've tested it a bit. That one might be easier for Eric (or someone) test out as it's more central.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

disp617
Posts: 318
Joined: 01 Sep 2005 00:09
Location: Central Mass

Post by disp617 »

It's probably me but I can't find a link to download 1.80. can someone post it for me please

User avatar
Scott
Site Administrator
Posts: 7498
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 12:00
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Contact:

Post by Scott »

1.080 is the "Fast Lane" release and only available to those that bought in, el cheapo at $25 and worth it if you like this stuff. They expect to have another Fast Lane release out very soon, from what I read.

Gary, your information is great, and appreciated. I still have not taken the plunge into trying DMR trunking yet. The NXDN trunking works superbly though.
Scott
SNE Maintenance/Janitor/Fixer of "Things"

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

Fast Lane is a pay for service that gets early releases of updates. It's $10.00 if you want a one year subscription (I think) and $25.00 for unlimited updates. You can pay by Paypal. If you need the payment information, PM me here.
disp617 wrote:It's probably me but I can't find a link to download 1.80. can someone post it for me please
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

I haven't even looked at NXDN, but I probably should. The city next to where my son lives in AL has a NXDN trunk system with tie ins to neighbor systems. I haven't had a chance to bring my set up down there yet, but might in the fall.

I've come across Network 139 sites, but haven't even started to explore that. I think it's Commtronics. I know that there is information in the Wiki, but I've been wrapped up with the much more extensive ICE system so far.

This might belong in it's own thread, but I'll put it here for now. The site and frequency information is not that accurate for the ICE MotoTrbo systems. Today, I found an new frequency for Site 7 and worked out the LCN and OTA CH information. I'm pretty sure that Taunton is also a larger site than the Wiki shows. When I get some time, I'll try to work on correcting that.

Oh, and I found a control channel that IDs as Network 134, Site 50. Just a control channel, no activity on it yet. I don't think it will be much longer before all of the analog systems are gone.
Scott SNE Webmaster wrote:1.080 is the "Fast Lane" release and only available to those that bought in, el cheapo at $25 and worth it if you like this stuff. They expect to have another Fast Lane release out very soon, from what I read.

Gary, your information is great, and appreciated. I still have not taken the plunge into trying DMR trunking yet. The NXDN trunking works superbly though.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

garys
SNE and Wiki Moderator
Posts: 3749
Joined: 29 Aug 2005 13:07

Post by garys »

I've hit a slight snag with identifying LCN and OTA CH on some systems. First the R820T that I'm using for voice decoding is significantly less stable and less sensitive than the Airspy. I've ordered a R820T2 Mini to fix that as the Amazon reviews are very good. One thing that I've also noticed is that power output varies from different transmitters on the same site. For instance, I can get some of the Kingston, MA frequencies quite well on the R820T, but others are too degraded to use for decoding. I've noticed the same thing with the Medford site.

It makes sense that there is some power variation between transmitters, but this seems a bit wide. Hopefully a better receiver will fix that.

If no one objects, I'm also going to do "partial" updates to some of the sites, at least for now. That way if someone else is looking at the same site, they won't have to duplicate all of the work to sort things out.
We're peace loving people, we're not hunting trouble, but if trouble should find us, we'll stand up and fight.

Post Reply